Can I modify a bread recipe to use "the sponge method"

[Dick from green lake wi]

Hi folks. I'm new to the group & look forward to being a member. I
have been enjoying Greg Patent's "Baking in America" bread recipes.
They are great! Turn out every time. Most of the bread recipes use
"the sponge method" and I like this method. Several of his recipes do
not use it. Do you suppose I can modify the recipes and use the sponge
method in all? I have taken up bread making as a sort of
hobby--learning on my own--and would appreciate any help. thanks!
Dick

[barry]

Post by Dick from green lake wi
Hi folks. I'm new to the group & look forward to being a member. I
have been enjoying Greg Patent's "Baking in America" bread recipes.
They are great! Turn out every time. Most of the bread recipes use
"the sponge method" and I like this method. Several of his recipes do
not use it. Do you suppose I can modify the recipes and use the sponge
method in all? I have taken up bread making as a sort of
hobby--learning on my own--and would appreciate any help. thanks!
Dick

No reason you can't make up a bit of sponge a few hours or a day before you
want to bake the bread. Just keep track of what you do so you can either
make adjustments to the recipe or replicate it when you get it down the way
you like it.

I'd suggest that you use less total yeast, since the sponge should give a
head start to the fermentation process. As a start, if the recipe for the
straight dough calls for a packet of yeast, 2 1/4 yeaspoons, try using 1/2
teaspoon in the sponge and a teaspoon in the final dough. You may have to
adjust these numbers a bit, or someone else may have a better idea.

Barry

[Dick from green lake wi]

hey, thanks, Barry!

[Dick Margulis]

Post by Dick from green lake wi
Hi folks. I'm new to the group & look forward to being a member. I
have been enjoying Greg Patent's "Baking in America" bread recipes.
They are great! Turn out every time. Most of the bread recipes use
"the sponge method" and I like this method. Several of his recipes do
not use it. Do you suppose I can modify the recipes and use the sponge
method in all? I have taken up bread making as a sort of
hobby--learning on my own--and would appreciate any help. thanks!
Dick

Hi Dick,

I don't have the book, so I'm trying to read between the lines of your
post a bit. If I'm making an incorrect assumption here, let me know.

It sounds as if the breads that are not made by the sponge method are
made with straight doughs (mix, ferment, shape, proof, bake). Typically,
straight doughs rely more on ingredients for flavor and less on dough
development. They also tend to have a sweeter cast to the flavor.

If you want to adapt a straight dough formula to the sponge method, a
certain amount of trial-and-error adjustment is called for. I'd start by
cutting back on ingredients such as sugar, fat, and milk--not
drastically, but significantly, maybe by a third as a starting point.
And naturally you'll want to reduce the yeast amount significantly, too.
Use the existing sponge method doughs as a guide to estimating yeast.

That said, you'll end up with a different bread. The texture will
probably be better developed, and the flavor will be more complex.
You're not making the same product, in other words. Whether this is a
good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal preference and the
particular type of item you're making.

What you might want to do is post one of the recipes you plan to change.
That way you can get specific advice on it. Or somebody can post, in
return, a recipe for the same type of bread that they've already tested
successfully.

Good luck,

Dick

[Dick from green lake wi]

hey, Dick. thanks for your prompt reply!

[Cristina Yake]

I've converted most straight dough recipes to the sponge method. I found
out that the breads have a better flavor and texture. Aside from that I
feel they last longer too.

I usually take 1C of liquid (whatever the recipe requires),dissolve the
yeast, add 1C. of flour, & 1tsp sugar (if the recipe calls for it).

I've since stopped buying loaf breads... :o)

This method is even better when you are making breads high in fat, like
brioche.

Tina

Post by Dick from green lake wi
hey, Dick. thanks for your prompt reply!

[Rich Hollenbeck]

Post by Dick Margulis

Post by Dick from green lake wi
Hi folks. I'm new to the group & look forward to being a member. I
have been enjoying Greg Patent's "Baking in America" bread recipes.
They are great! Turn out every time. Most of the bread recipes use
"the sponge method" and I like this method. Several of his recipes do
not use it. Do you suppose I can modify the recipes and use the sponge
method in all? I have taken up bread making as a sort of
hobby--learning on my own--and would appreciate any help. thanks!
Dick

Hi Dick,
I don't have the book, so I'm trying to read between the lines of your
post a bit. If I'm making an incorrect assumption here, let me know.
It sounds as if the breads that are not made by the sponge method are made
with straight doughs (mix, ferment, shape, proof, bake). Typically,
straight doughs rely more on ingredients for flavor and less on dough
development. They also tend to have a sweeter cast to the flavor.
If you want to adapt a straight dough formula to the sponge method, a
certain amount of trial-and-error adjustment is called for. I'd start by
cutting back on ingredients such as sugar, fat, and milk--not drastically,
but significantly, maybe by a third as a starting point. And naturally
you'll want to reduce the yeast amount significantly, too. Use the
existing sponge method doughs as a guide to estimating yeast.
That said, you'll end up with a different bread. The texture will probably
be better developed, and the flavor will be more complex. You're not
making the same product, in other words. Whether this is a good thing or a
bad thing is a matter of personal preference and the particular type of
item you're making.
What you might want to do is post one of the recipes you plan to change.
That way you can get specific advice on it. Or somebody can post, in
return, a recipe for the same type of bread that they've already tested
successfully.
Good luck,
Dick

Thanks for this good stuff!!
In another question I posted a little bit ago, "Baker's Percentage and
Preferments messing up my bread's ratios?", I asked a similar question.
These answers are going somewhat in the direction of where I want to go.

I'm going to be making pizza dough for tonight that I'm trying to give a
better flavor than usual. Here's what I'm starting with:

(originally straight dough method--I want to convert to "sponge method.")

100% 420 g Bread flour
002% 010 g Instant yeast
002% 008 g Salt
057% 240 g Water
007% 028 g Olive oil
---------------
168% 706g

(percentages rounded up and down to zero decimal places for convenience in
lining up the columns. It's therefore very approximate.)

It's been working pretty good as-is, but I really like the sour flavor of an
older dough. I want to pull some of that out and preferment it several hours
before making the rest of the dough. Any suggestions? I guess I'll need to
reduce the yeast as has been suggesed in some of the other answers.

[Dick Margulis]

Post by Rich Hollenbeck

Post by Dick Margulis

Post by Dick from green lake wi
Hi folks. I'm new to the group & look forward to being a member. I
have been enjoying Greg Patent's "Baking in America" bread recipes.
They are great! Turn out every time. Most of the bread recipes use
"the sponge method" and I like this method. Several of his recipes do
not use it. Do you suppose I can modify the recipes and use the sponge
method in all? I have taken up bread making as a sort of
hobby--learning on my own--and would appreciate any help. thanks!
Dick

Hi Dick,
I don't have the book, so I'm trying to read between the lines of your
post a bit. If I'm making an incorrect assumption here, let me know.
It sounds as if the breads that are not made by the sponge method are made
with straight doughs (mix, ferment, shape, proof, bake). Typically,
straight doughs rely more on ingredients for flavor and less on dough
development. They also tend to have a sweeter cast to the flavor.
If you want to adapt a straight dough formula to the sponge method, a
certain amount of trial-and-error adjustment is called for. I'd start by
cutting back on ingredients such as sugar, fat, and milk--not drastically,
but significantly, maybe by a third as a starting point. And naturally
you'll want to reduce the yeast amount significantly, too. Use the
existing sponge method doughs as a guide to estimating yeast.
That said, you'll end up with a different bread. The texture will probably
be better developed, and the flavor will be more complex. You're not
making the same product, in other words. Whether this is a good thing or a
bad thing is a matter of personal preference and the particular type of
item you're making.
What you might want to do is post one of the recipes you plan to change.
That way you can get specific advice on it. Or somebody can post, in
return, a recipe for the same type of bread that they've already tested
successfully.
Good luck,
Dick

Thanks for this good stuff!!
In another question I posted a little bit ago, "Baker's Percentage and
Preferments messing up my bread's ratios?", I asked a similar question.
These answers are going somewhat in the direction of where I want to go.
I'm going to be making pizza dough for tonight that I'm trying to give a
(originally straight dough method--I want to convert to "sponge method.")
100% 420 g Bread flour
002% 010 g Instant yeast
002% 008 g Salt
057% 240 g Water
007% 028 g Olive oil
---------------
168% 706g
(percentages rounded up and down to zero decimal places for convenience in
lining up the columns. It's therefore very approximate.)
It's been working pretty good as-is, but I really like the sour flavor of an
older dough. I want to pull some of that out and preferment it several hours
before making the rest of the dough. Any suggestions? I guess I'll need to
reduce the yeast as has been suggesed in some of the other answers.

For tonight, I'd suggest making a batch of your usual dough and,
separately, taking a stab at the sponge method, picking numbers that
seem likely to work. As it goes along, you'll be able to tell whether
it's developing into a decent dough. If so, throw your regular dough in
the fridge (for tonight, moving it to the freezer after dinner) and
proceed with the sponge dough. If not, you can eat Plan B and adjust
your sponge recipe for the next time.

If I were doing it, absent any other information than the formula you
listed above, here's where I'd start (although I'm no expert in sponge
doughs and someone else may have an approach they're far more confident of):

Sponge:

60% bread flour
0.5% instant yeast
35% water
2% olive oil

Mix to 78 F
Sponge time 3 to 4 hours

Dough:

40% bread flour
2% salt
24% water
2% olive oil

Add to sponge and mix to 80 F

Take to bench in about half an hour. Divide, round up, cover, rest, then
make up shells.

Now, as I said, that's a guess at a first pass. You'll want to take
notes and make adjustments until you get what you're aiming for.

[Rich Hollenbeck]

Post by Dick Margulis
For tonight, I'd suggest making a batch of your usual dough and,
separately, taking a stab at the sponge method, picking numbers that seem
likely to work. As it goes along, you'll be able to tell whether it's
developing into a decent dough. If so, throw your regular dough in the
fridge (for tonight, moving it to the freezer after dinner) and proceed
with the sponge dough. If not, you can eat Plan B and adjust your sponge
recipe for the next time.
If I were doing it, absent any other information than the formula you
listed above, here's where I'd start (although I'm no expert in sponge
60% bread flour
0.5% instant yeast
35% water
2% olive oil
Mix to 78 F
Sponge time 3 to 4 hours
40% bread flour
2% salt
24% water
2% olive oil
Add to sponge and mix to 80 F
Take to bench in about half an hour. Divide, round up, cover, rest, then
make up shells.
Now, as I said, that's a guess at a first pass. You'll want to take notes
and make adjustments until you get what you're aiming for.

Sounds good. I think, though, that since the idea is to get some extra
fermentation, I'll save the all the salt and oil for the final dough. I'm
making the "sponge", if that is what I'm really making, very wet and all the
rest of the ingredients will go into the final dough:




Sponge
Bread flour 168g 40.00%
Instant yeast 4g 0.95%
Salt 0g 0.00%
Water 170g 40.48%
Olive oil 0g 0.00%
---------------------------------
342g 81.43%

Dough
Bread flour 252g 60.00%
Instant yeast 6g 1.43%
Salt 8g 1.90%
Water 70g 16.67%
Olive oil 28g 6.67%
---------------------------------
364g 86.67%
(percentages all rounded out in MS-Access)

Should come out to:
706 g
168.10%
total.
We'll see.

Wish me luck. I'll report back.

Rich