Baguettes aeration and hydration

[Tim W]

Inspired by you guys and feeling I have reached a certain stage of skill and
experience I am attempting a series of baguettes with the hope of getting
close to the genuine french article. Now your actual French french bread is
normally very aerated, that is there is more empty space than bread inside
of a baguette, a very open crumb and a nice irregular texture. So far I am
getting loaves which look like baguettes but the crumb is far too dense.

Wetter dough might be the partial answer, although I will find it very
difficult to handle if it gets much wetter.

Is more yeast, or more active yeast an issue? My experience is that is is
not as important here as you might think.

Oven temp? I guss I need the extreme oven spring?

What do you think? What else might I look at?

Tim w

[Charles Perry]

...Now your actual French french bread is
normally very aerated,... ... So far I am
getting loaves which look like baguettes but the crumb is far too dense.
...Wetter dough might be the partial answer, although I will find it very
difficult to handle if it gets much wetter.

With practice, you can handle wetter dough than you might think when you
begin baking.

Is more yeast, or more active yeast an issue? My experience is that is is
not as important here as you might think.

If you get a good rise, more yeast is probably not the answer.

Oven temp? I guss I need the extreme oven spring?

You do need a hot oven, but timing the final rise is also a factor for
oven lift.

What do you think? What else might I look at?

For a given flour, to get a better hole structure in the final product
you need wetter dough, well developed dough, and a hot oven. Those are
the basic requirements and you can do quite well just working on them.

Once you get all you can out the basic requirements, you can work on
tweaking the recipe with either an old dough, poolish or biga stage. You
will also need to consider dough handling, forming, shaping, couping and
perfecting the timing and temperatures of the rise stages.

Don't get discouraged. Work on one thing at a time and your results
will improve. Perfection may be a good goal, but it is difficult to
achieve and doubly difficult in a home kitchen environment.

I have been doing this for a long time and my bread is better than what
I can buy. However, that is a comment that reflects the low quality of
what is sold here. Consistently edible is as much as I will claim and
there is an occasional exception to that brag. You seem to have the
drive to do much better.

Good luck,
Charles

[Barry Harmon]

Post by Tim W
Inspired by you guys and feeling I have reached a certain stage of
skill and experience I am attempting a series of baguettes with the
hope of getting close to the genuine french article. Now your actual
French french bread is normally very aerated, that is there is more
empty space than bread inside of a baguette, a very open crumb and a
nice irregular texture. So far I am getting loaves which look like
baguettes but the crumb is far too dense.
Wetter dough might be the partial answer, although I will find it very
difficult to handle if it gets much wetter.
Is more yeast, or more active yeast an issue? My experience is that is
is not as important here as you might think.
Oven temp? I guss I need the extreme oven spring?
What do you think? What else might I look at?
Tim w

The traditional French baguette is around 60% hydration, maybe up to 62%.
This will limit the size of the holes in the bread, which is what I think
you mean by aeration.

My recipe gets nice-sized holes, but they are by no means spider webs,
which is what some people seem to feel is the litmus test for artisanal
bread. I also like a bit thicker crust than some people like.

http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/f_b/french.htm

There are several things you can do to get larger holes in a lean, lower-
hydration bread.

Make sure you have fully developed the dough during mixing. Learn to use
the window pane test and use it when you bake.

Be careful during fermentation. Do a fold after 70% of the fermentation
time.

Be sure to give the dough a proper final rise time.

Have a hot oven and introduce water vapor into the oven. 440-450F works
well. Pour boiling water into a heated pan in the oven. Use an automotive
automatic transmission funnel to prevent getting scalded.

The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the initial
baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web of dough that
has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated during final rise, then is
expanded during the final burst of yeast activity before the yeast dies
off.

Barry

[Janet Bostwick]

Post by Tim W
Inspired by you guys and feeling I have reached a certain stage of
skill and experience I am attempting a series of baguettes with the
hope of getting close to the genuine french article. Now your actual
French french bread is normally very aerated, that is there is more
empty space than bread inside of a baguette, a very open crumb and a
nice irregular texture. So far I am getting loaves which look like
baguettes but the crumb is far too dense.

Tim
snip> The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the

initial baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web
of dough that has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated during
final rise, then is expanded during the final burst of yeast activity
before the yeast dies off.
Barry

Also, don't handle the dough so roughly that you completely deflate all the
nice bubbles that you created during the initial rise. Gently does it.
Janet

[John Andrews]

Post by Janet Bostwick

Post by Tim W
Inspired by you guys and feeling I have reached a certain stage of
skill and experience I am attempting a series of baguettes with the
hope of getting close to the genuine french article. Now your actual
French french bread is normally very aerated, that is there is more
empty space than bread inside of a baguette, a very open crumb and a
nice irregular texture. So far I am getting loaves which look like
baguettes but the crumb is far too dense.

Tim
snip> The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the

initial baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web
of dough that has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated during
final rise, then is expanded during the final burst of yeast activity
before the yeast dies off.
Barry

Also, don't handle the dough so roughly that you completely deflate all the
nice bubbles that you created during the initial rise. Gently does it.
Janet

I watched a video recently (I'll see if I can find it again...)
that showed how to handle French bread. The dough did the final
rise in a couch (linen cloth folded up around each loaf). When
it was time to place the risen loaves in the oven a board is
used to lift the dough onto the peel. The board is as long as
the loaf and about 7 inches wide and thin wood. The board is
placed next to the loaf on the couch and the cloth is raised to
roll the risen dough onto the board. Then to board is used to
transfer the dough to the peel. I tried it on my last loaves of
French bread and it worked nicely. It works especially well
with the long thin baguettes. Now let me see if I can find that
video...

Found it after a long search...
http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=82

I used the shaping method, too. As a result I put a big hole in
the center of one loaf. Watch out for that.

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

[John Andrews]

Post by Janet Bostwick

Post by Tim W
Inspired by you guys and feeling I have reached a certain stage of
skill and experience I am attempting a series of baguettes with the
hope of getting close to the genuine french article. Now your actual
French french bread is normally very aerated, that is there is more
empty space than bread inside of a baguette, a very open crumb and a
nice irregular texture. So far I am getting loaves which look like
baguettes but the crumb is far too dense.

Tim
snip> The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the

initial baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web
of dough that has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated during
final rise, then is expanded during the final burst of yeast activity
before the yeast dies off.
Barry

Also, don't handle the dough so roughly that you completely deflate all the
nice bubbles that you created during the initial rise. Gently does it.
Janet

Aha! this is it, not the last one.

http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=85

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

[Barry Harmon]

Post by John Andrews
http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=85

Why bother with the board -- why not just flip onto the peel from the
couche? It seems to me that if you flip onto a board you could flip onto
the peel.

Or am I missing something?

Barry

[John Andrews]

Post by Barry Harmon

Post by John Andrews
http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=85

Why bother with the board -- why not just flip onto the peel from the
couche? It seems to me that if you flip onto a board you could flip onto
the peel.
Or am I missing something?
Barry

Use the board so that it comes up right side up. If you just
flip it onto the peel, then it is upside down. ...unless you put
it upside down on couch. Also it is easier to load the peel
with several loaves using the board.

None of the above means much, but the board is easy to use, so
why not?

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

[Tim W]

Post by Barry Harmon
The traditional French baguette is around 60% hydration, maybe up to 62%.
This will limit the size of the holes in the bread, which is what I think
you mean by aeration.

That's it exactly. Is there a better term to describe the amount of gas in
the crumb?

Tim w

[Barry Harmon]

Post by Tim W

Post by Barry Harmon
The traditional French baguette is around 60% hydration, maybe up to
62%. This will limit the size of the holes in the bread, which is
what I think you mean by aeration.

That's it exactly. Is there a better term to describe the amount of
gas in the crumb?
Tim w

I'm sure there's a fifty-cent word for it, but aeration or holes or glutin
stucture work as well as anything as long as we all agree.

I have to admit, when I hear aeration I think of the texture of the dough
-- the amount of air that has been whipped into the dough. If we all agree
that aeration means the size and number of holes in the finished loaf, then
there's no problem. What this use does is take the definition from the
beginning of the process as an action and transfers it to the end of the
process as a result. Sort of a verb transmogrifying into a noun. Like
when the guys in the factory call the semi-finished product work, as in
"The work's coming through a little on the high side today."

Barry

[Barry Harmon]

Post by Barry Harmon

Post by Tim W

Post by Barry Harmon
The traditional French baguette is around 60% hydration, maybe up to
62%. This will limit the size of the holes in the bread, which is
what I think you mean by aeration.

That's it exactly. Is there a better term to describe the amount of
gas in the crumb?
Tim w

I'm sure there's a fifty-cent word for it, but aeration or holes or
glutin stucture work as well as anything as long as we all agree.
I have to admit, when I hear aeration I think of the texture of the
dough -- the amount of air that has been whipped into the dough. If
we all agree that aeration means the size and number of holes in the
finished loaf, then there's no problem. What this use does is take
the definition from the beginning of the process as an action and
transfers it to the end of the process as a result. Sort of a verb
transmogrifying into a noun. Like when the guys in the factory call
the semi-finished product work, as in "The work's coming through a
little on the high side today."
Barry

Here's another take on baguettes, this one from Italy and with a wet
dough. There is another version that is even wetter.

http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/sfilatino_modified/sfilatino_mo
dified.htm

Barry

[Orlando Enrique Fiol]

Post by Barry Harmon
There are several things you can do to get larger holes in a lean, lower-
hydration bread.
Make sure you have fully developed the dough during mixing. Learn to use
the window pane test and use it when you bake.

May I ask what is this test?

Post by Barry Harmon
Be careful during fermentation. Do a fold after 70% of the fermentation
time.

Might a bread machine play a part in any of this?

Post by Barry Harmon
Be sure to give the dough a proper final rise time.

How much would you recommend? Would you punch it down afterwards?

Post by Barry Harmon
Have a hot oven and introduce water vapor into the oven. 440-450F works
well. Pour boiling water into a heated pan in the oven.

Should the loaf pan be placed atop that bain marie?

Post by Barry Harmon
The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the initial
baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web of dough that
has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated during final rise, then is
expanded during the final burst of yeast activity before the yeast dies
off.

Very informative.

Thanks,
Orlando

[Dick Margulis]

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Learn to use
the window pane test and use it when you bake.

May I ask what is this test?

Pull out an ear of dough and stretch it to thin the center. You should
be able to pull it thin enough to see through without tearing holes in it.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Be careful during fermentation. Do a fold after 70% of the fermentation
time.

Might a bread machine play a part in any of this?

Not generally, but I suppose you could use a bread machine for mixing
and the first part of the fermentation, then open up the machine and
work by hand thenceforth.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Be sure to give the dough a proper final rise time.

How much would you recommend? Would you punch it down afterwards?

The final rise is the proof stage, just before the bread goes in the
oven. Wouldn't want to be punching it down at that stage, would you? <g>

As for how long, that's what you have to judge. Typically, you want to
be able to make a small indentation in the side of a loaf with the tip
of your pinky and have the indentation not spring back at you but also
not have the loaf collapse with a whoosh. If you have to err, err on the
side of a little teensy bit of springiness. Overproofing is a bigger
mistake.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Have a hot oven and introduce water vapor into the oven. 440-450F works
well. Pour boiling water into a heated pan in the oven.

Should the loaf pan be placed atop that bain marie?

No, you're not trying to keep the pan cool; you're trying to keep the
surface of the loaf moist. So you want steam in the oven, not a water
bath under the pan. The idea is to use just enough water so that it's
all gone by about five to eight minutes into the bake.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the initial
baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web of dough that
has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated during final rise, then is
expanded during the final burst of yeast activity before the yeast dies
off.

Very informative.
Thanks,
Orlando

[Barry Harmon]

Post by Dick Margulis

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Learn to use
the window pane test and use it when you bake.

May I ask what is this test?

Pull out an ear of dough and stretch it to thin the center. You should
be able to pull it thin enough to see through without tearing holes in it.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Be careful during fermentation. Do a fold after 70% of the
fermentation time.

Might a bread machine play a part in any of this?

Not generally, but I suppose you could use a bread machine for mixing
and the first part of the fermentation, then open up the machine and
work by hand thenceforth.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Be sure to give the dough a proper final rise time.

How much would you recommend? Would you punch it down afterwards?

******* Just to elaborate a bit on Dick's answers, there are two
different times when the dough sits and exdpands.

The first time is after you have mixed the dough, tested it by the
window pane and put it aside to develop. This period is the
FERMENTATION stage. You can break the total fermentation time by
folding the dough. I use several different timing sequences for
folding, but he most common, or so it seems, is to fold gently after
about 70% of the total fermentation time. If you are to ferment for 2
hours, fold the dough after 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The second development stage is after you have shaped the dough and
before baking. This is called FINAL RISE or PROOF. This is the stage
where the dough finishes developing the web network that will fill with
gas and allow the expansion in the oven.

Post by Dick Margulis
The final rise is the proof stage, just before the bread goes in the
oven. Wouldn't want to be punching it down at that stage, would you? <g>
As for how long, that's what you have to judge. Typically, you want to
be able to make a small indentation in the side of a loaf with the tip
of your pinky and have the indentation not spring back at you but also
not have the loaf collapse with a whoosh. If you have to err, err on
the side of a little teensy bit of springiness. Overproofing is a
bigger mistake.

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
Have a hot oven and introduce water vapor into the oven. 440-450F
works well. Pour boiling water into a heated pan in the oven.

Should the loaf pan be placed atop that bain marie?

No, you're not trying to keep the pan cool; you're trying to keep the
surface of the loaf moist. So you want steam in the oven, not a water
bath under the pan. The idea is to use just enough water so that it's
all gone by about five to eight minutes into the bake.

******* You shouldn't use more that a cup of water (230ml),and
frequently less than that.

Barry

Post by Dick Margulis

Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol

Post by Barry Harmon
The holes develop partly during final rise and partly during the
initial baking period. The trick is to develop a large, strong web
of dough that has a lot of compartments and is partly inflated
during final rise, then is expanded during the final burst of yeast
activity before the yeast dies off.

Very informative.
Thanks,
Orlando